is undermined and corrupted, even though a man be allowed to do whatever he pleases, life is still worth having to him, if he be forbidden to escape from vice and injustice, and to attain justice and virtue; for we now see the true nature of each.

Yes, I said, the question is, as you say, ridiculous. Still, as we are near the spot at which we may see the truth with our own eyes, let us not faint by the way.

Certainly not, he replied.

Come hither then, I said, ascend the hill which overhangs the city, and see the various forms of vice.

I am following you, he replied: proceed.

I said, We seem to have reached a height from which a man may look down and see that virtue is one, but that the forms of vice are innumerable; there being four special ones which are deserving of note.

What do you mean? he said.

I mean, I replied, that there appear to be as many forms of the soul as there are forms of the State.

How many?

There are five of the State, and five of the soul, I said.

What are they?

The first, I said, is that which we have been describing, and which may be said to have two names, monarchy and aristocracy, accordingly as rule is exercised by one or by many.

True, he replied.

But I regard the two names as describing one form only; for whether the government is in the hands of one or many, if the governors have been trained in the manner which we have supposed, the fundamental laws of the State will be maintained. That is true, he replied.

BOOK V.

SUCH is the good and true State, and the good and true man 449 is of the same pattern; and if this is right every other is wrong; and the evil is one which affects not only the ordering of the State, but also the regulation of the individual soul, and exists in four forms.

What are they? he said.

I was proceeding to tell the order in which the four evil forms appeared to me to succeed one another, when Polemarchus, who was sitting just beyond Adeimantus on the further side, began to whisper to him. Stretching forth his hand, he took hold of the upper part of his coat by the shoulder, and drew him towards him, leaning forward himself and saying something, of which I only caught the words, 'Shall we let him off, or what?' Certainly not, said Adeimantus, raising his voice. What is it, I said, which you refuse to let off?

You, he said.

Still I asked for an explanation1,

Why, he said, we think that you are lazy and mean to cheat us out of a whole chapter which is a very important part of the story; and you fancy that we shall not notice your airy way of proceeding; as if it were self-evident to everybody, that in the matter of women and children 'friends have all things in common.'

And was I not right, Adeimantus?

Yes, he said; but what is right, in this as in every other case, has to be explained; for a community may be of many kinds. Please, therefore, to say which you mean; for we have been ex

1 Reading ἔτι ἐγὼ εἶπον.

1

pecting that you would tell us something about their family life -how they would bring children into the world, and rear them when they had arrived, and, in general, what is the nature of this community of women and children-as we are of opinion that the right or wrong management of such matters will have a great and paramount influence on the State for good or for evil. And now, since the question is still undetermined, and you are taking in hand another State, we have resolved, as you heard, 450 not to let you go until you give a satisfactory explanation of all this, as of the rest.

To that resolution, said Glaucon, you may regard me as saying Agreed.

And without more ado, said Thrasymachus, you may consider us all to be equally agreed.

me.

I said, You do not know what you are doing in thus assailing What an argument are you raising! Just as I thought that I had finished, and was only too glad that I had laid this question to sleep, and was reflecting how fortunate I was in your acceptance of what I then said, you begin again, ignorant of what a hornet's nest of words you are arousing. Now I foresaw this coming trouble, and avoided it.

For what do you think that we are here? said Thrasymachus, -to find the philosopher's stone, or to hear discourse? Yes, but discourse should have a limit.

Yes, Socrates, said Glaucon, and the whole of life is the only limit which wise men assign to the hearing of such discourses. But never mind about us; only get on and in your own way answer the question: What sort of community of women and children is this which is to prevail among the guardians? and how shall we manage the period between birth and education, which seems to require the greatest care? Tell us how these things will be.

Yes, my simple friend, but the answer is the reverse of easy; many more doubts arise about this than about our previous speculations. For the practicability of what is said may be doubted; and looked at in another point of view, whether the scheme, if ever so practicable, will be for the best, is also doubtful. Hence there arises a fear, as we draw near, lest our aspiration should be a dream only.

L

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Fear not, he replied, for your audience will not be hard upon you; they are not sceptical or hostile.

I said: My good friend, I suppose that you mean to encourage me by these words.

Yes, he said.

Then let me tell you that you are doing just the contrary; the consolation would have been good had I believed myself that I knew what I was talking about: for to know and to declare the truth in matters of high interest which a man loves among wise men who love him is a safe thing and gives confidence; but to carry on an argument when you are yourself only a doubting enquirer, which is my case, is a dangerous and 451 slippery thing; and the danger is not that I shall be laughed at (of which the fear would be childish), but that I shall miss the truth where I have most need to be sure of my footing, and drag my friends after me in my fall. And I pray Nemesis not to visit upon me the words which I am going to utter. For I do indeed believe that to be an involuntary homicide is a less crime than to be a deceiver about the beauty or goodness or justice of institutions. And that is a risk which I would rather run among enemies than among friends, and therefore you do well to console me1.

Glaucon laughed and said: Well then, Socrates, in case you and your argument do us any serious injury you shall be acquitted beforehand of the homicide, and shall not be held to be a deceiver; take courage then and speak.

Well, I said, the law says that when a man is acquitted he is free from guilt, and what holds in the one case may hold in the other.

Then why should you mind?

Well, I replied, I suppose that I must retrace my steps and say what I perhaps ought to have said before. The men have played out their part, and now comes the women's turn; of whom I will proceed to speak, and the more readily as I am invited by you.

For men born and educated like our citizens, the only way, in my opinion, of arriving at a right conclusion about the possession and use of women and children is to follow the path on which

1 Reading ὥστε εὖ με παραμυθεῖ.

we originally started, when we said about the men that they were to be the guardians and watchdogs of the herd.

True.

Let us proceed now to give the women a similar training and education, and see how far that accords with our design.

What do you mean?

What I mean may be put into the form of a question, I said: Do we divide dogs into hes and shes, and take the masculine gender out to hunt, or have them to keep watch and ward over the flock, while we leave the females at home, under the idea that the bearing and suckling their puppies hinder them from sharing in the labours of the males?

No, he said, they share alike; the difference between them is in degrees of strength.

But can you use different animals for the same purpose, unless they are bred and fed in the same way?

You cannot.

Then, if women are to have the same duties as men, they must 452 have the same education?

Yes.

The education which was assigned to the men was music and gymnastic.

Yes.

Then women must be taught music and gymnastic and also the art of war, which they must practise like the men? That is the inference, I suppose.

I should rather expect, I said, that several of our proposals, if they are carried out, being unusual, may appear ridiculous. No doubt of it.

Yes, and the most ridiculous thing of all will be the sight of women naked in the palaestra, exercising with the men, especially when they get old; they certainly will not be a vision of beauty, any more than the wrinkled old men who have anything but an agreeable appearance when they take to gymnasticsthis, however, does not deter them.

Yes, indeed; he said: according to present notions the proposal would appear ridiculous.

But then, I said, as we have determined to speak our minds, we must not fear the jests of the wits which will be directed