We

the perusal of the conversations which actually took place, of which Knox has himself left a copious and, apparently, to a large extent, a verbatim account, in his "Historie of the Reformation in Scotland." shall place these conversations before the readers of this Magazine almost entire, modernizing the spelling, and doubt not that, while they will smile at some of the Reformer's arguments, and be impressed by his "great plainness of speech," they will agree that, in these interviews, so far as we can judge," he never lost sight of the respect which was due to the person of his sovereign, nor of the decorum which became his own character."

Mary returned to Scotland in August, 1561. On the following Sunday she heard mass. On the Sunday afterwards Knox referred to the subject in his sermon, declaring that one mass was more fearful to him than the landing of ten thousand armed enemies in the kingdom. A report of the sermon reached the queen, and next day she sent for the

*Life of John Knox. By Thomas McCrie, D.D. Dr. McCrie's work is not so widely read as it ought to be. It is rather bulky, but full of interest. All Congregational libraries ought to have it. To the reader who would like to study the character and work of Knox, we also heartily commend Mr. Froude's "History of England," vol. x., and his recent collection of Essays, "Short Studies on Great Subjects." Mr. Froude has done many good things, but not the least of them is his noble vindication of Knox, and his eloquent and discriminating statement of the work the Reformers had to do. See Lectures on "The Influence of the Reformation on Scottish Character," and "The Times of Erasmus and Luther," in "Short Studies," &c. Vol. i.

Reformer, who thus describes the interview: +

"The queen accused him that he had raised a part of her subjects against her mother, and against herself; that he had written a book against her just authority, (she meant the treatise against the Regiment [Government] of Women,) which she had, and should cause the most learned in Europe to write against it; that he was the cause of great ́ sedition and great slaughter in England; and that it was said to her, that all which he did was by necromancy, &c.

"To the which the said John answered, Madam, it may please your Majesty patiently to hear my simple answers.. And first,' said he, 6 if to teach the truth of God in sincerity, if to rebuke idolatry, and to will a people to worship God according to His Word, be to raise subjects against their princes, then can not I be excused; for it has pleased God of his mercy to make me one (amongst many) to disclose unto this realm the vanity of the papistical religion, and the deceit, pride, and tyranny of that Roman Antichrist. But, madam, if the true knowledge of God, and His right worshipping, be the chief causes that must move men from their heart to obey their just princes, (as it is most certain that they are,) wherein can I be reprehended? I think, and am surely persuaded, that your grace have had, and at present have, as unfeigned obedience, of such as profess Jesus Christ within this realm, as ever your father, or other pro

The Works of John Knox. Printed for the Bannatyne Club. Vol. ii.

genitors, had of those that were called bishops.'

“Knox then referred to the book, 'Against the Government of Women,' which had so offended Mary, stating that he still believed in the soundness of his arguments. To the queen's retort that this implied a disbelief in her authority, he answered that learned men in all ages had held opinions and theories opposed to the common customs of men; and that, nevertheless, practically they had often been none the worse citizens; and, he added, with a touch of grim but apparently unconscious humour, that, for his part, he was as well content to live under her grace as Paul was to live under Nero.'

"But now, madam,' he proceeded, 'shortly to answer to the other two accusations.

I heartily praise my God, through Jesus Christ, that Satan, the enemy of mankind, and the wicked of the world, have no other crimes to lay to my charge but such as the very world itself knoweth to be most false and vain. For, in England, I was resident only the space of five years. The places were Berwick, where I abode two years; so long in Newcastle, and a year in London. Now, madam, if in any of these places, during the time that I was there, any man shall be able to prove that there was either battle, sedition, or mutiny, I shall confess that I myself was the malefactor, and the shedder of the blood. I am not ashamed, madam, further to affirm, that God so blessed my weak labours, that in Berwick (where commonly before there used to be slaughter, by reason of quarrels that used to arise amongst soldiers) there was as great quietness all the time that I remained

there as there is this day in Edinburgh. And where they slander me of magic, necromancy, or of any other art forbidden of God, I have witnesses, besides my own conscience, all the congregations that ever heard me, what I spake both against such arts, and against those that use such impiety. But, seeing the wicked of the world said, that my Master, the Lord Jesus, was possessed with Beelzebub, I must patiently bear, albeit that I, wretched sinner, be unjustly accused of those that never delighted in verity.'

666

Madam,' said he, as right, (true) religion took neither original strength nor authority from worldly princes, but from the Eternal God alone, so are not subjects bound to frame their religion according to the appetites of their princes. For oft it is that princes are the most ignorant of all others in God's true religion, as we may read in the histories as well before the death of Christ Jesus as after. If all the seed of Abraham should have been of the religion of Pharaoh, to whom they were long subject, I pray you, madam, what religion would there have been in the world? Or, if all men in the days of the apostles should have been of the religion of the Roman emperors, what religion would there have been on the face of the earth? Daniel and his fellows were subject to Nebuchadnezzar, and unto Darius, and yet, madam, they would not be of their religion, neither of the one nor of the

other; for the three children said, 'We make it known unto thee, O king, that we will not worship thy gods.' And Daniel did pray publicly unto his God against the express commandment of the king. And so, madam, you may perceive that subjects are not bound to the religion of their princes; albeit they are commanded to give them obedience.'

"Yea,' quoth she, but none of those men raised the sword against their princes.'

"Yet, madam,' quoth he, 'you cannot deny but that they resisted; for those that obey not the commandments that are given in some sort resist.'

"But yet,' said she, they resisted not by the sword?

"God,' said he, ' madam, had not given unto them the power and the means.'

"Think you,' quoth she, that subjects having power may resist their princes?'

"If their princes exceed their bounds,' quoth he, 'madam, and do against that wherefore they should be obeyed, it is no doubt but they may be resisted, even by force. For there is neither greater honour nor greater obedience to be given to kings or princes than God has commanded to be given unto father and mother. But so it is, madam, that the father may be stricken with a frenzy, in the which he would slay his own children. Now, madam, if the children arise, join themselves together, apprehend the father, take the sword or other weapons from him, and finally bind his hands, and keep him in prison till that his frenzy be overpast; think you, madam, that the children do any wrong? Or, think ye, madam, that

God will be offended with them that have stayed their father to commit wickedness? It is even so,' said he, 'madam, with princes that would murder the children of God that are subject unto them. Their blind zeal is nothing but a very mad frenzy; and therefore to take the sword from them, to bind their hands, and to cast themselves in prison till that they be brought to a more sober mind, is no disobedience against princes, but just obedience, because that it agreeth with the will of God.'

"At these words the queen stood as it were amazed, more than a quarter of an hour. Her countenance altered, so that the Lord James (her brother) began to entreat her, and to demand, 'What has offended you, madam ?'

6

"At length she said, Well, then, I perceive that my subjects shall obey you (Jno. Knox), and not me, and shall do what they list, and not what I command; and so must I be subject to them, and not they to me.'

"God forbid,' answered he, 'that ever I should take upon me to command any to obey me, or yet to set subjects to do what pleaseth them. But my travail is, that both princes and subjects obey God. And think not,' said he, madam, that wrong is done unto you when ye are willed to be subject unto God, for it is He that subjects people under princes, and causes obedience to be given unto them; yea, God craves of kings, that they be as it were foster fathers to His Church, and commands queens to be nurses unto His people. And this subjection, madam, unto God, and unto His troubled Church, is the greatest dignity that flesh can get upon the face of the earth, for it shall carry them to everlasting glory.'

"Yea,' quoth she, but ye are not the Church that I will nourish. I will defend the Church of Rome, for I think it is the true Church of God.'

"Your will,' quoth he, madam, is no reason, neither doth your thought make that Roman harlot to be the true and immaculate spouse of Jesus Christ. And wonder not, madam, that I call Rome a harlot; for that Church is altogether polluted with all kinds of spiritual fornication, as well in doctrine as in manners. Yea, madam, I offer myself further to prove that the Church of the Jews that crucified Christ Jesus was not so far degenerated from the ordinances and statutes which God gave by Moses and Aaron unto His people, when that they manifestly denied the Son of God, as that the Church of Rome is declined, and more than 500 years hath declined from the purity of that religion which the apostles taught and planted.'

that plainly speaketh in His Word; and further than the Word teaches you, ye shall believe neither the one nor the other. The Word of God is plain in itself; any obscurity in Ghost, which is never contrary to Himself, explains the

us.

and if there appear one place, the Holy

same more

clearly in other places. So that there can remain no doubt but unto such as obstinately remain ignorant. And now,' said he, 'madam, to take one of the chief points, which this day is in controversy between the Papists and For example, the Papists allege and boldly have affirmed that the mass is the ordinance of God, and the institution of Jesus Christ, and a sacrifice for the sins of the quick and the dead. We deny both the one and the other, and affirm that the mass, as it is now used, is nothing but the invention of man, and therefore is an abomination before God, and no sacrifice, that ever God commanded.

"Conscience, madam,' said he, 'requires knowledge, and I fear that right knowledge you have none.'

66 6 'But,' said she, 'I have both heard and read.'

"So," said he, 'madam, did the Jews that crucified Christ Jesus read both the law and the prophets, and heard the same interpreted after their manner. Have ye heard any teach,' said he, 'but such as the pope and his cardinals have allowed? And ye may be assured that such will speak nothing to offend their own estate.'

"You interpret the Scriptures,' said she, 'in one manner and they interpret in another. Whom shall I believe? And who shall be judge?'

"Ye shall believe,' said he, God,

us two, thus contending? It is reason that neither of the parties be further believed, than they are able to prove by insuspect witnessing [reliable testimony]. Let them lay down the Book of God, and by the plain words thereof prove their affirmatives, and we shall give unto them the play granted. But so long as they are bold to affirm, and yet do prove nothing, we must say, that albeit all the world believed them, yet believe they not God, but receive the lies of men for the truth of God. What our

Master Jesus Christ did, we know by His evangelists; what the priest doeth at his mass, the world seeth. Now, doth not the Word of God plainly assure us that Jesus Christ neither said, nor yet commanded mass to be

said, at His Last Supper, seeing that no such thing as their mass is made mention of within the whole Scriptures ?'

"You are too hard for me,' said the queen; but and if they were here that I have heard, they would answer you.'

"Madam,' quoth the other, 'I would to God that the learnedest Papist in Europe, and he that ye would. best believe, were present with your grace to sustain the argument, and that ye would patiently abide to hear the matter reasoned to the end; for then, I doubt not, madam, that ye should hear the vanity of the Papistical religion, and how small ground it hath within the Word of God.'

"Well,' said she, 'ye may perchance get that sooner than ye believe.'

"Assuredly,' said the other, if ever I get that in my life I get it sooner than I believe; for the ignorant Papists cannot patiently reason, and the learned and crafty Papists will never come into your presence, madam,

to have the ground of their religion searched out; for they know that they are never able to sustain an argument, except fire and sword, and their own laws be judges.'

666

So say ye,' said the queen, ‘but I cannot believe that.'

"It has been so to this day,' quoth he, for how oft have the Papists in this and other realms been required to come to conference, and yet could it never be obtained, unless that themselves were admitted for judges. And, therefore, madam, I must yet say again, that they dare never dispute but where themselves are both judge and party. And whensoever ye shall let me see the contrary, I shall grant myself to have been deceived on that point.'

"And with this the queen was called upon to dinner, for it was afternoon. At departing John Knox said unto her, I pray God, madam, that ye may be as blessed within the Commonwealth of Scotland, if it be the pleasure of God, as ever Deborah was in the Commonwealth of Israel.''

of the influence thus exerted by similar appeals to their senses. Thus Augustine, we are told, when proceeding to hold an interview with King Ethelbert, had a verger before him and his companions carrying a silver cross, while one followed bearing aloft, on a painted and gilded board, a representation of the Saviour-the