make you own that all the heretics, which you and I acknowledge for such, came in this manner, and that you have done as they did? This is the way, sir, you prove that Jews and Pagans might mantain their cause by the argument I use. No one can ever do it; nor ever can any one deny the evident fact which I affirm, which is that we do as all the orthodox, and you as all heretics have done."

Here the conversation ended: it lasted five hours, with a great attention of the whole assembly. We heard one another peaceably; we spoke on both sides consecutively enough; and except at the beginning, when M. Claude digressed a little from the subject, he throughout came to the matter, and faced the difficulty without recoiling. It is true, he aimed rather to entangle me in the perplexities in which I entoiled him than to show how he could himself get out: however, all this proceeded from the cause, and assuredly he said every thing his could furnish him with on the point to which we had confined ourselves. For my part, I was desirous not to quit it, since it was that which Mademoiselle de Duras desired to have cleared. She appeared to me touched; I nevertheless retired trembling, and fearing lest my weakness might have put her soul in danger, and the truth in doubt.

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SEQUEL OF THE CONFERENCE.

I VISITED her next day. I was glad to see she perfectly understood what I had said. This is what I had promised her. I had represented to her, that amidst the immense difficulties, which the spirit of cavilling and the depth of the Christian doctrine had caused to spring up amongst men, God would have his children provided with an easy means to resolve themselves in what concerned their salvation, and this means was the Church's authority; that this means was easy to establish, easy to understand, easy to follow; "so easy," said I, "and so clear, that if you shall not understand me in what I shall say upon it, I am contented you believe me to be in the wrong." This in fact must be the case, when the matter is well handled; but I dared not promise myself that I had treated it as I ought. I discovered with joy and thanksgiving that God had turned all to good. The arguments that ought to affect, affected her. Mademoiselle de Duras could not comprehend how an ignorant private person could, without intolerable pride, believe he might happen to understand the Scripture better than all the universal councils and all the rest of the Church. She saw, as well as I, how weak was the example of the synagogue's condemnation of Jesus Christ, and how little reason there was to say that individuals who believed aright needed an external authority to determine them, when they had in the person of Jesus Christ the greatest and most visible authority that can be imagined. I passed again over the doubt in which one must be touching the Scripture, if one doubted the Church's authority. She said she never so much as thought that a Christian might doubt one moment concerning the Scripture; and besides, she perfectly understood that M. Claude, rejecting the word doubt, acknowledged the thing in other terms; which served only to show how hard this matter was both to think and say, since, being forced to own it, he thought not fit to do it in simple terms; for in fine, not to know whether a thing be or not, if it be not to doubt, is nothing. It appeared then clearly, that the two propositions which were in debate were established; and I showed her, in few words, that her Church, by believing two such strange things, had changed the whole order of instructing God's children practised at all times in the Christian Church.

To this effect, it was only necessary to repeat to her what she had heard me say, and what she had heard M. Claude grant. However, God put in my heart something more express, and I said to her as follows:

"The order of instructing God's children is, to teach them, before all things, the Apostles' Creed: 'I believe in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost; the Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins,' &c. As much as the faithful believes in God the Father, and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost, so much does he believe the universal Church, where the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost is adored. As much, I say, as he believes the Father, so much does he believe the Church which professes to believe that God, the Father of Jesus Christ, has adopted children whom he has united to his Son. As much as he believes in the Son, so much does he believe the Church, which he assembled by his blood, which he established by his doctrine, which he founded on the rock, and against which he has promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail. As much as he believes in the Holy Ghost, so much does he believe that Church to which the Holy Ghost was given as teacher. And he that says, 'I believe in God, and in Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost,' does, in saying, 'I believe,' make a profession; with the heart he believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth he maketh a confession unto salvation, as St. Paul says,* and he knows that the faith he has is not a private sentiment. There is a Church, a society of men, which believes as he does. It is the universal Church, which is neither here, nor there, nor at this period, nor that. She is not confined to merely one country, like the ancient Jewish Church, nor is she to end, as that was; and her kingdom shall not pass to another people, as it is written in Daniel. She is at all times and in all places, and so widely spread, that whoever will come to her, may. She has no interruption in her succession, for there is no time when one could not say, 'I believe the universal Church,' as there is no time when one could not say, 'I believe in God the Father, and in his Son, and in the Holy Ghost.' This Church is holy, because whatsoever she teaches is holy; because she teaches all the doctrine which makes men holy-that is to say, all the doctrine of Jesus Christ; because she embraces all holy ones, all saints, in her one communion. And these saints must not only be united in spirit, they are outwardly united in the communion of this Church; and this is what is meant by the com

*Rom. x. 9, 10.

Dan. ii. 44; vii. 14.

CA

SCRIPTURE RECEIVED FROM THE CHURCH

A. M. D. K

111 1950TH STREE.

CORK

YORK CITY.

.

munion of saints.' In this universal Church, in this communion of saints, is the remission of sins. Therein is baptism, by ch sins are remitted therein is the ministry of the keys, by which whatsoever is remitted or retained on earth is remitted or retained in heaven.* In this Church, then, you behold an external ministry, which lasts as long as the Church itself—that is to say, always; since this Church is believed at all times not as a thing which has been, or is to be, but as a thing which actually is. See then to what this Church is joined, and what is joined to this Church. She is joined immediately to the Holy Ghost, which governs her: 'I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church. To this Church is joined the communion of saints, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, life everlasting. Out of this Church, there is neither communion of saints, nor remission of sins, nor resurrection of the flesh to eternal life. Here then, you have the faith of the Church established in the Creed. The Creed makes no mention of the Scripture. Is it because it despises it? God forbid! you will receive the Scripture from the hands of the Church; and because you never doubted of the Church, you will never doubt of the Scripture, which the Church has received from God, from Jesus Christ, and from the apostles, which she always keeps as coming from that source, which she puts into the hands of all the faithful."

I thought I perceived that this doctrine, truly holy and apostolical, produced its due impression. "But there is," said I, "one word more. It is what I said to M. Claude, and I reduce it now to this plain argument, which every one may equally understand; I mean the learned as the ignorant, and the private person as the pastor. The baptized Christian, before he reads the Holy Scripture, can either make this act of faith, ' I believe that this word is inspired by God, as I believe that God is,' or he cannot. If he cannot, then he doubts of it; he is reduced to examine, whether the gospel be not a fable; but, if he can, by what means shall he do it? The Holy Ghost will put it in his heart-this is no answer; for it is agreed that faith in the Scripture comes from the Holy Ghost. The question is concerning the external means which the Holy Ghost uses, and there can be no other than the Church's authority. Thus every Christian receives from the Church, without examining, this Scripture, as a writing inspired by God.

"Let us go still further.-Does the Church only give us the Holy Scriptures on paper, the husk of the word, the body of the letter? No: without doubt, she gives us the spirit-that is,

Matt. xvi. 19. John xx. 23.

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CHURCH'S DECISIONS CONCLUSIVE.

the sense of the Scripture; for to give us the Scripture without the sense, is to give us a body without a soul, a letter which killeth. The Scripture without its lawful interpretation, the Scripture destitute of its natural sense, is a weapon for self-destruction. The Arian destroyed himself, by the Scripture misunderstood; so did the Nestorian; so did the Pelagian. God forbid, then, that the Church should give us only the Scripture without giving us the sense of it. She received them both together. When she received the Gospel of St. Matthew and the Epistle to the Romans, and the rest, she understood them: this sense, which she received with the Scripture, she has kept with the Scripture; and the same outward means which the Holy Ghost uses to make us receive the Holy Scripture, he uses also to give us its true sense. All this ensues from the same principle: all this is the sequel of the same design. As, then, there is nothing to examine after the Church when she gives us the Holy Scripture, so there is nothing to examine when she interprets it and proposes its true sense. And, accordingly, you see that, after the Council of Jerusalem, Paul and Silas said not-'Examine this decree,' but taught the Churches to observe what the Apostles had judged.

"This is the course of proceeding which the Church has invariably adopted. 'I should not believe the Gospel,' says St. Augustin, 'were I not moved by the authority of the Catholic Church:** and, a little after, Those whom I believed, when they said to me, believe the Gospel, shall I not believe, when they say, believe not Manichæus? This society of pastors, established by Jesus Christ and continued until now, when giving me the Gospel, has also told me that I must detest heretics and evil doctrine: I believe both together, and on the same

Contra Epist. Fund. Manich.-[As this important passage has been often criticised and misinterpreted-(see Neander's Ch. Hist. ii. 438, Clausen's Augustinus, p. 41, &c.)-it may be well to exhibit it with its context.— . . . . librum quem Fundamenti Epistolam dicitis, ubi totum pene quod creditis continetur. Certe sic incipit: Manichæus apostolus Jesu Christi, providentia Dei Patris. Hæc sunt salubria verba, de perenni et vivo fonte.' Jam cum bonâ patientiâ, si placet, attendite quid quæram. Non credo illum esse Apostolum Christi....non credo: quid jam dicas aut facias non habebis: promittebas enim scientiam veritatis, et nunc quod nescio cogis ut credam. Evangelium mihi fortasse lecturus es, et inde Manichæi personam tentabis asserere. Si ergo invenires aliquem qui nondum credit, quid faceres dicenti illi, Non credo? Ego vero Evangelio non crederem nisi me catholicæ Ecclesiæ commoveret auctoritas. Quibus ergo obtemperavi dicentibus, Crede Evangelio: cur eis non obtemperem dicentibus mihi, Noli credere Manichæis? Elige quid velis. Si dixeris, Crede Catholicis, ipsi me monent ut nullam fidem accommodem vobis: quapropter non possum illis credens nisi tibi non credere. Si dixeris, Noli Catholicis credere: non recte facies per Evangelium me cogere ad Manichæi fidem, quia ipsi Evangelio Catholicis prædicantibus credidi... Tom. viii. p. 111. E. Ben.]