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SECTION II.

The Conference.

I WENT to the Countess of Roye's house, where I met M. Claude. We began by mutual civilities, and he on his part testified great respect. After this I entered upon the subject by asking for an explanation of the four acts, transcribed in my book, and mentioned above. Having in few words stated the difficulty as it is proposed in the Exposition, and as I had laid it open to Mademoiselle De Duras, I added that M. Claude ought to be the more prepared to answer it, as what I said was not at all new to him, since in all appearance the treatise of the Exposition had fallen into his hands, and that, in a discussion like the present, it was a great satisfaction to be assured there would be no surprise.

M. Claude took up the discourse, and, having reiterated all the former civilities in terms yet more obliging, he at once declared that all I had objected from their "Discipline" and synods in my treatise, and also at present, was very faithfully related without any alteration of the words. With regard to the sense, however, he begged to inform me that though there were, as I had observed, divers degrees established in their Discipline, the force of the decision was to be wholly referred to God's word alone. As to what I objected, that God's word had been proposed in the consistory, from which one might appeal; whence it followed, according to my inference, that the final decision, from which there was no more appeal, belonged to God's word, not taken in itself, but in as much as declared by the final judgment of the Church;-such was not their intent for they held that the decision wholly appertained to the pure word of God, which the Church in her assemblies, first and last, did but show and point to; but these divers degrees had been established to give those who erred leisure to bethink themselves. That, accordingly, excommunication was not resorted to in the first instance, the consistory hoping that a greater assembly, like the colloquy, and afterwards the provincial synod, composed of a greater number of persons, perhaps more respected, or at any rate less suspected, by the gainsayer, would dispose him to hear the truth; that the colloquy

and the provincial synod used like moderation on the same motive of charity; but that after the national synod had spoken, as it was the last human remedy, all hope was at an end, and that they proceeded then to the final sentence, making use of excommunication as the last effort of ecclesiastical power. That it was not thence to be concluded that the national synod held itself any more infallible than the preceding assemblies, but only that, after all had been tried, the ultimate resource was adopted.

That, as to the promise made prior to the national synod, it was founded only on the hope entertained that the assembly would follow the word of God, and that the Holy Ghost would preside in it, which did not signify a perfect assurance; and, besides, that the form "being persuaded" was a courteous manner of expressing a condition, without weakening the reverence for so great an assembly, or the favorable presumption to be held in regard of their proceedings.

As to the condemnation of the Independents, he prayed me to observe that, touching the authority of the Church and her assemblies, there was something in which those of his religion agreed with us, and something in which they agreed with the Independents: with us, that ecclesiastical assemblies are necessary and useful, and that some subordination must be established with the Independents, that these assemblies, how numerous soever, are not therefore infallible. That, accordingly, they were obliged to condemn the Independents, who denied not only the infallibility, but also the utility and necessity of these assemblies and of this subordination. "It is in this," said he, "that Independency consists." He added, that to maintain it was, indeed, to overthrow order, and make way for as many religions as there were parishes; because by so doing every means of agreeing was taken away. Hence he concluded that, although it was a settled point amongst them that ecclesiastical assemblies were not infallible means, yet their being useful means afforded sufficient reasons for maintaining them, and condemning the Independents.

"As to the synod of Sainte Foy, the object in view was either to render the Lutherans more tractable, by drawing them," said he, "nearer to ourselves, or at any rate to establish a mutual toleration; which entailed no necessity of any suppression or addition in the Confession of Faith, this being held for unalterable; and that, besides, although full power had been given to four ministers, yet I well knew that such acts were subject to ratification, in case the proxies went beyond their instructions: witness the ratifications necessary in treaties

agreed to by the plenipotentiaries of princes, and other like examples, in which there is always a condition of obtaining the prince's ratification-a condition which, without being expressed, is naturally included in such commissions."

Having spoken to this effect at some length, and in very lucid and orderly style, he added that he believed me, equitable as I was, ready to acknowledge that, as in things in which I should have to explain to him our tenets and our councils,—that of Trent, for instance,-it would be fit he should acquiesce in my representation of them, so it was just I should rest satisfied with his explanation of the articles of their discipline and the tenets of their party; it being certain that there was no other amongst them but what he had now declared to me.

I replied, in reference to this concluding suggestion, that what he said would be true, did the question turn merely on explanation of their rites, if this word might be used, and the manner of their administering the word or sacraments, or holding of synods; that in this I should take his word, as being better informed; but that here I maintained they had shared the fate of all who are in error, falling into contradiction, and being forced to set up what they had denied. That I was aware they denied any obligation of submitting to the Church's judgment without examining it; but that, at the same time, I considered this infallibility of the Church to be so necessary, that even those who deny it in speculation could not forbear establishing it in practice if they would keep any order amongst them. Further, that if his purpose were to show any contradiction in the tenets of the Catholic Church, I should not pretend to oblige him to receive the explication I should give him of her tenets and her councils, and that it would then be free for him to draw from their words such inference as he pleased, and I thought he would not refuse me as much to which he consented without difficulty.

I had no design to insist much on the synod of Sainte Foy, which would, I thought, carry me too far from the two propositions, the acknowledgment of which I aimed to draw from him; I only therefore answered that I yielded to the reason he alleged concerning the necessity of a ratification, though in matters of faith such powers and trusts were a little extraordinary and, besides, I was willing to believe that the synod had not intended the deputies should overturn all. But that which struck me, and what he seemed not to have answered, was that the synod had doubted of their confession of faith, since they' permitted the making of another, and I saw not how this agreed

with what they further told us, that this confession contained nothing but the pure word of God, in which every one knows there is nothing to be changed. As to his observation, that their aim was only to reduce the Lutherans to more equitable sentiments, or at all events to settle a mutual toleration, two things gainsayed it: first, that there was mention of a power to decide all points of doctrine, which manifestly concerned the real presence, a point the Lutherans would never give up; second, that to settle a mutual toleration there was no need of framing a confession of common faith, but only of establishing this toleration by a synodal decree, as was done at Charenton. M. Claude answered that the point of doctrine to be decided was, whether a mutual toleration might be established, and that the confession of common faith would have done no more than declare this toleration. That this might be done in a synod he would not deny, as I must grant that it might also be done in a confession of faith, which would have an express article to that purpose.

I answered him that this could never be called a confession of faith; and I asked him whether he thought the Lutherans or the Calvinists should have retrenched any thing of what the one said for the real presence, and the other against it. He answered "No;" and then, said I, each party would abide by terms of its own confession of faith, having nothing in common but the article of toleration. There were, he observed, many other points whereon we agreed. Granted, said I; but it was not about these points the accord was to be made; the question was about the real presence, and some others on which it was impossible to draw up a confession of common faith, exept one of the parties changed, or both agreed upon ambiguous expressions, which each might draw to its own opinions, a thing that had been often attempted, as M. Claude himself would readily own. He granted it, and even instanced the Assembly of Marbourg, and some others held for that purpose; I concluded then that I was warranted in believing that the Synod of Sainte Foy had a like design, and that it would have been to mock the world to call that a confession of common faith which should have exhibited such manifest contradictions on such important doctrinal points. I further added, it was the more certain that a confession of faith was, as I said, the object contemplated, because the Lutherans having already several times declared against toleration, nothing was to be expected from them but by the means of which I spoke. The matter rested there, and I only said that every one need but

consider what he ought to think in his conscience of a confession of faith which a whole national synod had consented to change.

M. Claude having observed that the oath of submitting to the national synod included a condition, I interrupted him by putting in a word. "Yes," said I, "they hoped well of the synod, yet without certainty; and, pending the issue, they engaged by oath to submit." M. Claude telling me here that I interrupted him, and praying me to allow him to conclude, I held my peace. But after the affair of Sainte Foy was discussed, I observed to him that I thought it necessary, before passing any further, I should state in a few words what I had conceived of his doctrine, to the end we might not speak in the air. I said to him then, " You say, sir, that these words, 'Being persuaded that God will preside in it, and guide you by his Holy Spirit in all truth and equity through the rule of his word,' are only a courteous manner of proposing a condition." He agreed to it. "Let us then," said I, "reduce the proposition to a conditional one, and we shall see its meaning. I swear to submit to all you shall decide, on this supposition or condition, that what you shall decide be agreeable to God's word. Such an oath is nothing else but a manifest illusion, as signifying nothing; I might take the same to M. Claude, or he to me. But in this there would be nothing serious; and as a proof that something special is intended, observe that this oath is made only to the synod, which gives the final determination, although, in M. Claude's sense, there were as much reason to make it to the consistory, to which they ought to submit, as well as to the synod, supposing it has the word of God as its guide."

Here I paused for a while; and finding that nothing was said in reply, I resumed as follows:-" Then, after all, sir, if I well understand your doctrine, you believe that a private person may doubt of the Church's judgment even when she gives her final determination." "No, sir," M. Claude answered: "it is not to be said that one may doubt; there being all the likelihood in the world that the Church will judge aright." "He that says likelihood, sir," replied I immediately, "says a manifest doubt." "But," said M. Claude, "there is more for Jesus Christ promised that all those who should seek would find; and since it is to be presumed they will seek well, it is to be also believed they will judge well, and in this assurance there is something indubitable. But upon witnessing cabals, factions, and different interests at work in councils, it may rea