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the question of adjournment was before

the court.

The Chairman. "I think the hon. proprietor may move his resolution before the question of adjournment."

Capt. Maxfield said, he was not disposed to move resolutions of the description which he had prepared as an amendment to the question of adjournment. He thought that the quarterly court (if it meant any thing), meant that subjects of this important nature should be fairly introduced and duly discussed; if he had thought otherwise, he would have obtained the signature of the regular number of proprietors, and requested that a special general court should be summoned for the consideration of this question. He had supposed that they were to meet for the regular purposes of a quarterly general court; that was, to discuss all matters connected with the well-being of the Company: but now he found that they had assembled only to adjourn, and that at so early an hour as ten minutes after two o'clock. Was he to understand that these resolutions could only be received as an amendment to the motion for adjourn ment? If so, he must adopt a different course. He did not doubt that a great many persons were very well-disposed to lose this question altogether; and most probably it would be lost, let it be brought forward when it might. Still, however, he could not consent that it should be introduced under the disadvantage of being treated as an amendment to the question of adjournment, and that, too, at so very early an hour. (Cries of "read your resolutions.") The hon. proprietor then read the following resolutions:

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"1st. That it appears from the papers -laid before the court in January last, that for the ships engaged for six voyages the highest is hired at £26. 10s. per ton, or the average of the whole £23. 17s. per ton per voyage. That the seven ships belonging to the Company have, for all the voyages they have performed collectively, averaged £27. 8s. 8d. per ton per voyage. That of the ships engaged for one voyage, the highest is hired at £15. 7s., or the average of the whole but £13. 6s. per ton. "2d. That it is evident the engaging of ships for a number of voyages is liable to numerous objections, and that a considerable reduction of expenses may be effected by hiring tonnage as required, and employing ships of a smaller class than those engaged for six voyages; and that the Court of Directors be therefore requested to avoid such engagements in future, to enable the Company to embrace those advantages which are offered from the extensive maritime resources of this country.

"3d. That it appears a portion of our trade has been conducted in ships of a

smaller class more economically equipped, but possessing every requisite for commercial purposes; therefore, the extraordinary and expensive mode of equipment observed in the regular ships may be dispensed with, as well as in the ships belonging to the Company.

"4th. That this court conceive it would tend to promote the public interests if the permission of Parliament were obtained to enable the Company to divide a small portion of the surplus profit which may accrue hereafter on our commerce above ten and a-half per cent., and that the Court of Directors be therefore requested to prepare a petition to Parliament, entreating the authority of the legislature to divide such portion of the surplus profit above ten and a-half per cent., as Parliament may, deem adequate to promote such object."

Mr. Ellis seconded the resolutions. He thought the thanks of the court were due to the hon.proprietor for the pains which he had taken in the investigation of this important subject; and it appeared to him to be quite impossible that the court could separate without something being said by those in authority on this subject. There certainly were individuals in the court, who could state whether the positions of the hon. gentleman were correct or not; and he thought that neither the Court of Proprietors nor the public at large would be satisfied, unless the question were fairly discussed.

The Chairman said, perhaps the best course that could be taken on this occasion would be for him, with the permission of the court, to withdraw the motion of adjournment, and to put the resolutions of the hon. proprietor, as a substantive question, instead of placing them before the court, in the shape of an amendment. (Hear!) Now that he was on his legs, he begged to observe, that he lamented very much that the hon: proprietor had not adopted that course which was usual on such occasions, that he had not communicated to him (the Chairman) the motion which he meant to bring forward; he, in that case, would have made himself better acquainted with all the various topics connected with the motion then before the court. He could, however, meet some of the hon. proprietor's objections, with respect to the present shipping system. The question appeared to divide itself naturally into two parts: first, as to the Company's shipping; whether it was necessary for the service of the Company to have a separate and distinct description of marine? It had always been considered that it was wise to possess this species of marine. (Hear!) The Company had kept up this system for years, and great benefit had been derived from their possession of such a fleet. It was necessary that they should

have a large description of ships to convey the Company's troops to India, and to effect the periodical reliefs of the King's regiments serving there; they were also em. ployed in carrying out ordnance, military stores, &c. When this duty was performed, they took in valuable cargoes; and therefore, he contended, that the Company ought to possess ships of this class; besides, when the ships arrived in India, should any circumstances happen which rendered it necessary for the government to employ vessels, they were ready to their hand. They had not to go into the market and run the chance of hiring ships; and it was obvious that at certain times much advantage accrued, in consequence of the government having this species of tonnage at their disposal. Of course they had to ⚫ answer for any extra detention of those vessels. A daily demurrage was required, which amounted to little more than the payment of the men and the expense of ground tackling; but the government, when pressed on the moment, sometimes sent those ships on short voyages-a proceeding which was absolutely necessary when military operations were carrying on; therefore he thought that, in every point of view-whether they looked at the question with reference to commerce or to politics, it was right that the Company should have a distinct fleet of this size. That was a point which he thought could not justly be questioned, while the Company maintained its present situation. But, beyond all this, so long as the Legislature continued the government of India in the hands of the Company, he never could bring himself to consider the whole of the subject under discussion as a mere money question. There were many ways, in a political point of view, in which the Company derived very great advantages from the possession of this class of ships, which otherwise they could not obtain. Of this he was perfectly satisfied, that no person could deny that the ships of the Company were of the best possible description. (Hear!) In the second place, the hon. proprietor had adverted to the amount of freight paid for those vessels. To this he would answer, that the next time the Company advertised for ships, he should feel much pleasure if the hon. proprietor, in the free exercise of his professional knowledge, would send in a tender for £10, £15, or £20 per ton. If the hon. proprietor did so, he could assure him that it would be accepted at once. The Court of Directors had no power in these cases; their line of conduct was clearly defined. The bidding for ships was, by act of parliament, thrown open to public competition. After the Company had decided that a certain quantity of tonnage should be taken up, it was left to "Asiatic Journ. VOL. XXI. No. 124.

the public to state the terms on which they were willing to supply it; and the Court of Directors were obliged to take the lowest tender that was offered. That simple fact included within its compass the whole question of freight.

Dr. Gilchrist hoped that the hon. member, who had brought this question forward so ably, would not relax in his endeavours; but that, on some future day, he would bring forward those cogent reasons for an alteration in the shipping system, which he had observed he would postpone for the present. In looking over the list of ships and their tonnage, which he had seen this morning, some things appeared which required explanation. He there saw the rate of tonnage, in one place £15. 10s., and all at once he found it raised, in another to £21. He was still more surprised with respect to the number of voyages, He saw that a ship on the stocks, a nameless, an anonymous vessel, was taken up for six voyages. This vessel, it appeared, was building in the place of the Kent, which was destroyed; and he would ask, how many voyages had that vessel to go when she was lost? He saw the new vessel was taken at £21 per ton; and, when he carried his eye into the next column, he found that she belonged to a Mr. Marjoribanks. He made these remarks, because he wished to receive proper information. He could assure the Court of Directors that he felt as great an interest in their character as they did themselves.

Capt. Loch said, that the ship Kent had been unfortunately burned; and, as no blame could be attached to the commander or owners, the Court of Directors were authorized, by the act of the 58th of Geo. III., to contract with the owners or their representatives for the building of a new ship, on the lowest terms on which any vessel had been taken up for the season. Under these circumstances, the new vessel was ordered to be built, at the rate of £21 per ton, without favour to any one.

[The clause of the 58th of Geo. III., referred to by the hon. director, was here read.

1st."That it appears from the papers laid before the Court in January last, that of the ships engaged for six voyages the highest is hired at £26. 10s. per ton, or the average on the whole of them £23.17s. per ton per voyage.

"That the seven ships belonging to the Company have for all the voyages they have performed collectively averaged £27. 8s. 8d. per ton per voyage.

"That of the ships engaged for one voyage the highest is hired at £15. 7s., or the average in the whole but £13. 6s. per 2d.

ton.

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2d. "That it is evident the engaging ships for a number of voyages is liable to numerous objections, and that a considerable reduction of expense may be effected, by hiring tonnage as required, and employing ships of a smaller class than those now engaged for six voyages, and that the Court of Directors be therefore requested to avoid such engagements in future, to enable the Company to embrace the advantages which are offered from the extensive maritime resources of this country.

3d. "That it appears a portion of our trade has been conducted in ships of a smaller class more economically equipped, but possessing every requisite for commercial purposes; therefore, the extraordinary and expensive mode of equipment observed in the regular ships may be dispensed with, as well as in the ships, belonging to the Company.

4th. "That the court conceive it would tend to promote the public interests if the permission of Parliament were obtained, to enable the Company to divide a small portion of the surplus profit which may accrue hereafter on our commerce above ten and a half per cent., and that the Court of Directors be therefore requested to prepare a petition to Parliament entreating the authority of the Legislature to divide such portion of the surplus above ten and a half per cent., as Parliament may deem adequate to promote such object."]

The Chairman.-" I only wish to observe, that the proposition for building this ship has been confirmed by the Court of Proprietors." (Hear.)

Dr. Gilchrist said, he was satisfied that it was altogether a legitimate proceeding. There was an act of parliament in favour of it; but the question was, whether that act might not be repealed, with great propriety, by and by. He would suppose a case. If their charter should happen not to be renewed, might they not be left with some of those big ships on their hands, which would be of no use whatever to them?

The Chairman said, that, even if their exclusive right to trade to China were taken from them, the Company would still exist as a great commercial body; and, in that capacity, ships would certainly be necessary for their service. The subject which the honourable proprietor (Capt. Maxfield) had brought forward, had been argued in that court for years together; and the result was, that the proprietors were decidedly of opinion, that the description of ships to which the hon. mover objected were the most advantageous for the Company's service. Experience clearly proved that they were right in that opinion. The only point on

which he was not opposed to the hon. mover was this-that, perhaps, the rates of freight were high. For his own part he wished they were lower, and he would cheerfully adopt any plan to effect a reduction. If the hon.mover would offer to build ships at twenty or twenty-five per cent. less than was demanded by others, the Company would gladly accept his offer.

Capt. Maxfield.-Nothing which had been said, established, in his mind, the necessity of taking up ships, at so high a freight, for several voyages, when vessels of a smaller class could be engaged so much lower for one voyage. At an early period of their history, when they had to contend with many enemies, it was necessary, he knew, that they should possess large ships. That necessity, however, no longer existed. Long and deep-rooted prejudices might induce them to adhere to the old system; but that they ought to get rid of that system, did not, in his opinion, admit of any, doubt. In the early part of their history, they were under the necessity of fighting their way. The Company did not then possess strong fortresses in India; they had not then an army of 130,000 men. They had not, at that time, the support of the British navy; that force which Iwas the admiration of the world. That force would protect the Company's flag in India while their charter lasted; and that, he hoped, would be for ever. Looking back to the time to which he had adverted, he found that the Company's ships were then no less respectable, as ships of war, than his Majesty's vessels were. There was, however, a great deal of difference now, though the pretensions, on the part of the Company's vessels, were considerably inflated. In the by-gone period, the officers got their command from the sovereign, and martial-law prevailed on board the Company's ships: circumstances rendered this necessary and proper.

But the disposition which at present prevailed to make these vessels something more than merchant-vessels, was as mischievous as it was expensive. He admitted that they were fine ships; and so they might remain without incurring such an enormous expense. He was a naval man; and he thought a large ship sailed without guns as well as with them: and, for commercial purposes, much better. A merchant vessel being filled with a cargo, how was it possible to get at shotholes? What, then, would be the condition of one of the Company's ships, heavily laden, if she received a shot between wind and water? He had known one of those ships to have merchandize stowed in the cuddy and in the pump-room; the consequence of which was, that she had nearly been lost. This crowding

crowding was occasioned by the necessity of making room for the guns. It certainly was not necessary that those vessels should have guns on board, nor any thing but merchandize.

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If there were any part of the Company's system that required alteration, it unquestionably was that which related to their shipping and commercial concerns. It bore hard on every party connected with them; and, as he had said before, hung like a millstone round their necks. They governed 70,000,000 of people; and, after getting the last rupee from them, they turned round and told them that it was too expensive to administer the law of the land to them. This was not his mere assertion; it rested, as he had already shewn, on the highest authority -on the authority of the House of Commons. An hon. member had observed, that the charter of the Company might expire before the term for which their ships were engaged was concluded. To this it was answered, that the Company, at the expiration of the charter, would still exist as a commercial body. This circumstance surely afforded the strongest possible argument in favour of economy. In the ordinary commerce of India, they could not go on with those expensive ships he therefore advised the court to alter the system at once, and the Company would then be prepared for whatever might happen. He did not say, nor mean to say, that the ship-owners derived unfair profits: what he asserted was, that the system was unnecessarily expensive. The hon. Chairman had observed, that the Company must always have a fleet; and if such were the case, that it could not be maintained without great expense. Now, he could see no necessity for a fleet, when they had not sufficient employment for the vessels; and he knew a ship belonging to the Company to go round to different, ports, from one side of India to the other, without getting a cargo. She, however, was one of the fleet. He saw none of the advantages which were said to be derived from their having a fleet of large vessels at China. The size of their ships did not appear to prevent disputes there. Americans, who possessed no fortresses in India, who could claim no respect on the score of having an army of 130,000 men, contrived to manage their business effectually with vessels of a comparatively small size. They carried on their business through the medium of a supercargo, and they brought away their teas a good deal cheaper than the Company could, because their vessels were far less expensive. He would, however, maintain, that, if proper means were taken, an English vessel could sail cheaper than

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an American; and he could see no reason for not adopting the most moderate scale of expense that could be pointed out. He was prepared to shew that, with due attention, £500,000 a-year might be saved in this department. this saving were considered of no importance to the Company, he had nothing more to say. He believed he had known old müskets, cartouch-boxes, and other trash, sold on a principle of economy; and, from this circumstance, some persons imagined that they must be in a most desperate state that they were, in fact, on the eve of bankruptcy. He, however, never indulged in any such feeling of despondency; on the contrary, he thought that their affairs were in a very flourishing state, and might be made to flourish still more. (Hear!) With that view it was that he brought forward the present motion.-(Hear!) He did not say that there had been any intentional waste. waste and expense of which he complained had grown out of established usage; and he had pointed out the manner in which the Company had been led into the system. If, however, those large ships were necessary in time of war, they could not be required in time of peace. But he would maintain that, even in time of war, they were not necessary, while this country possessed so great a maritime force.

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Captain Loch said, that the ships chiefly alluded to by the hon. proprietor were India ships, which had but a few voyages to go; the rest were all China ships, taken up at the lowest public tender, and by act of parliament could not be engaged for less than six voyages, except in cases of exigency. Two had been taken up some time ago, under such circumstances, one at £17. 2s., and the other at £16. 11s. per ton, which was not much less expensive than some of the regular ships in the Company's service, of which some are as low as £18, 5s. per ton.

In estimating the charge of freight, it ought to be observed, that the port duties at China were much less in proportion on large than on small ships; and this difference ought to be taken into consideration, and a proper allowance should be made for it, before the hon. proprietor struck the rate of tonnage. The Company are their own underwriters; it was therefore necessary to be careful in what ships they placed their valuable cargoes; and he believed no person could deny that the Company's ships were some of the finest ships in the world. If any individual went to Lloyd's and inquired what ships they were most willing to insure, the answer would be at once-the Company's ships. There was no great difference in the rate of insurance; but, as to 4 B 2

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choice, no sort of doubt or question existed, and this he believed arose from the circumstance that the Company were so particular with respect to the outfit. The Company's own ships had paid extremely well, and would, very soon, occasion little or no charge to the Company. It was of great importance that the Company should possess ships of a superior class, because, when war broke out in India, such a force enabled them to defend all their colonies. He did not mean to say that they could defend those colonies as the British navy could do, but that they could defend them to a certain degree. The hon. proprietor had spoken in favour of taking up ships for one voyage. Their freight appeared very low; but then it should be recollected, that they were not liable to a charge for damage. Now the Company's ships were liable for damage to the amount of £3,000, which made the freight of those ships appear so much the greater. He was not aware of the motion which the hon. proprietor intended to make. He therefore could not, at the moment, go into the minutiae of those calculations; but if he had time to examine them, he was convinced he could shew that they contained many overstatements; as also, that the freights of the Company's ships were not so extravagant as the hon. proprietor imagined. The present shipping system appeared to him to answer the purposes of the Company exceedingly well, and therefore he should oppose the motion.

He was

Mr. Twining hoped he would be excused for obtruding, for a few moments, on the attention of the court. quite unprepared to examine the calculations of the hon. proprietor; but, from long experience, he could speak of the manner in which the Company's ships brought home their cargoes from China. They were conveyed to this country in the best possible state; and he believed that the condition in which they were brought home, was a great saving and a great benefit to the Company.-Hear!) -He could not but remind the court of the good which had been derived, not only by the Company, but by the government and the country at large, from the excellent way in which their ships were equipped in time of war. It was in consequence of the way in which those ships were fitted out, and their fine condition, that a valuable cargo had been saved,

when the French fleet, under Admiral Linois, was beaten off by Commodore Dance.-(Hear!)-The cargo was safely brought home, and serious embarrassment, both to the Company and the country, was thus prevented. With respect to a recent unpleasant occurrence in China, it had not, he believed, been occasioned by the presumption of persons commanding the Company's ships, but arose from the interference of a gallant captain in his Majesty's service.

Capt. Maxfield was most willing to bear testimony to the gallant conduct of the officers commanding the Company's vessels on every occasion, so far as the means afforded them permitted; and he said this, because otherwise it might be supposed, from the remarks of the hon. proprietor, that his (Capt. Maxfield's) observations tended to impugn the merits of those excellent officers. He wished now to say, that he had not taken in his calculations an assumed rate of tonnage, but the expense actually incurred. With respect to the six-voyage ships, he had rated them rather low, because they were entitled to £1. 10s. per ton more if they proceeded to the continent of India, instead of going to China direct; and, as he supposed many of them would first proceed to India, he had a right to add £ls. 10s. more to their freight per ton. The whole of his statement was founded on the papers laid before the court; and if he had drawn any erroneous inference, he would be happy to have it corrected. With respect to the misunderstandings which had, from time to time, occurred with the Chinese, he would only observe, that he did not think English officers or sailors were more likely to quarrel with that people than the Americans were. But there was a reason for the jealous feeling manifested by the Chinese government; they well knew that the Company carried on an extensive trade in opium, which was against their laws; and he would ask, if a ship from France came into the river Thames, and endeavours were made to introduce from that vessel goods which were prohibited, would it not make a great noise? Would not the government soon lay hold of such a dépôt of contraband goods?

The motion was then put from the Chair, and lost by a large majority; only five hands being held up in favour of it, The court then adjourned.

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