or twenty-five years of age. It would then be in the power of those who had to make the appointment to see that the young men had gone through a complete course of university education; and they would then be more fit for the perforinance of their important duties than they were at present; for he was decidedly one of those who thought that a thorough education, such as that acquired at the universities, and grafting on that some Oriental knowledge, enabled a young man to enter on the service with greater strength, both of body and mind-with more likelihood of serving the Company efficiently, and of effecting the purpose which they had in view, than if he went out at twenty or twenty-two, without that preparatory knowledge both of men and books which he was almost certain to gain at the university. With respect to the latter part of the bill, which related to the payment of salaries and allowances to the representatives of officers who had removed from their station or presidency in consequence of ill health, and unfortunately died before they could return, he entirely agreed in its propriety. He, however, wished the law to be carried farther: he was anxious that officers leaving their set. tlements or stations, on account of ill health, should be allowed to draw part of their salaries or allowances.

Dr. Gilchrist observed, that the question seemed to be, whether the provisions of the bill should be confined to three, or extended to five years.

The Chairman stated, that there was no such question before the court.

. Dr. Gilchrist said, though it was not perhaps regularly before the court, yet it certainly had been argued. He had himself been a probationer, on a particular occasion (that which related to the giving instruction in the Hindoostanee to the Company's servants), for three years, to which three years had been added'; and if, in such a case as that, six years were deemed necessary for the experiment, he could not conceive why they should refuse five years in the present.

The Chairman said, that, in compliance with a by-law which imposed this duty on them, the Court of Directors had laid the bill before this court; and all that remained for him to do was, to ask whether the proprietors concurred in the provisions of the bill or not.

General Thornton was of opinion that, as the bill was now passing through Parliament, the present was the proper time for the proprietors to state their opinion on its various clauses. It was not too late for them to propose alterations in the bill, if they deemed them necessary.

The Chairman." The proprietors may petition Parliament on any point that does

not meet their wishes; that is their only course."

The Deputy Chairman. -I wish to explain to the hon. proprietor the situation in which we stand. If this court were to vote that five years were a term preferable to three, we have no means of conveying that sentiment to Parliament, except by petition. If the proprietors object to the bill in whole or in part, it will be necesin order that their feeling may sary, be inade known to the legislature, that some person should move that a petition be presented on the subject to the House of Commous."

General Thornton was perfectly aware of the fact stated by the hon. deputy chairman; but he thought was a very good plan to investigate the provision of any legislative measure, which affected the Company, and by that means to apprize individuals who were members of Parliament, whether in that court or out of it, of their sentiments, instead of proceeding by the more strict and formal mode, that of applying to Parliament by petition. He approved of the bill so far as it went; but wished that the time of its operation should be extended. He did not, indeed, desire that any particular time should be mentioned for the cessation of its provisions; because, if it were found necessary, a bill might be introduced at any moment to put an end to the measure, and to allow the college to proceed in its old course. One hon. gent., an ex-director (Mr. Pattison), seemed to think a longer time than three years was necessary. Another hon. gent., one of their directors (Cal. Baillie), appeared to be of opinion, that three years was too long a period. This, therefore, afforded conclusive proof that no period should be mentioned for the return to the present restriction; if circumstances hereafter shewed that such a return was necessary, it could be effected on the moment. He was not disposed to run down the college of Haileybury; some good had undoubtedly been effected by it but it would be foolish to contend (against what they all knew), that it had not created some evil: several young men of great promise had been ruined by it. Let that establishment, however, go on; but, let those who chose it have an opportunity of trying whether a proper education could not be afforded in different parts of the country, where the young men would not be liable to imbibe that taste for expense, and those exclusive notions of importance, which they were very apt to do at Haileybury. He was anxious that there should be a proper examination, in order that the proper authorities should be informed how far the young men were fitted to perform the important duties that were likely to devolve on them. He believed that at pre4 A 2

sent

sent much of what they were taught was not, so far as active life was concerned, worth a pin. The system ought to be thrown open; and, therefore, he was opposed to any restriction whatever. He wished, without carrying a regular petition to Parliament, that the time should be extended to at least four or five years; but, in preference to that, he could wish that there should be no restriction at all; leaving it to the court to proceed hereafter as they might think proper, should circumstances occur which seemed to call for a return to the old system.

The Chairman-"It is necessary for me to state to the proprietors, that with respect to a suspension of the existing law for three years, there has been little or no difference of opinion in the Court of Directors. We have thought that a sufficient time for making good the deficiency of servants as well as for determining the effect of the experiment; and there can be no difficulty, if it shall hereafter be found necessary, in calling for a farther suspension of the law. I think, however, that a sufficient supply of civil servants can, and will be afforded, in the course of three years.

The motion was then carried unanimously.

The Chairman immediately proceeded to put the question of adjournment.

Mr. Gahagan wished to know, before the court adjourned, why the bill now pending in Parliament, relative to juries in India, had not been laid before the court, conformably with the by-law, cap. 1, sec. 4.

The Chairman answered, that the bill in question did not, in the opinion of the Company's law officer, come under the provisions of the by-law which had been mentioned.

Mr. Gahagan said, a bill had been brought into Parliament, which affected very materially part of the population of India. By that measure, the half caste were made eligible to act as jurors. In fact, the bill pointed out, all "good and sufficient men as eligible to fill that situation. This was a very important change for India, and the bill effecting it being in progress through the House of Commons, he should like to know why it had not been laid before the court?

He sup

posed there was some good reason for the omission.

The Chairman observed, that the measure did not, like the other bill which had been laid before them, come within the scope of the by-law.

Mr. Gahagan said that, in his opinion, it did and he would willingly argue the point with the Company's learned counsel. Why did he say this? Because the bill evidently affected the rights and privileges of the subjects of the East-India

Company. Surely, it could not be said, because the proceedings of the Supreme Court extended only ten miles beyond the limits of each presidency, that therefore this bill did not interfere with the interests of the Company. The court ought, from time to time, to be formally acquainted with what was done with respect to the situation of the Company's Indian subjects. If their law officer contended, that the letter of the by-law did not render it necessary that this bill should be laid before the court, then he would say that, as it involved a great moral question, it should not be withheld from them. By the provisions of that bill, a great moral boon was conferred on India; and he dif fered most completely from the learned serjeant (Bosanquet) in opinion, when that learned person asserted that the by-law did not require its production. Under the bylaw, as it appeared to him, the production of that bill was expressly called for. There was another bill (introduced, he believed, by an hon. director), relative to the settlement of the Nabob of Arcot's debts, which had not been laid before the court. He would ask, did not that measure affect their interests in a pecuniary way? and, if so, why was that bill kept from their view? He said this, without any invidious feeling. He thought the bill relative to juries was so very important-it was a measure so honourable to the Company, and would, he was sure, prove so very beneficial to India, that it ought to be submitted to their consideration.

Mr. Astell wished, as the hon, proprietor had personally alluded to him, to say one or two words. A bill, relative to the Carnatic commission, had been undoubtedly read a second time in Parliament. Its object was, under peculiar circumstances, to continue that commission for some time longer. That measure had been revived three or four times, in consequence of the variety of claims that were to be decided upon. The by-law said, "that all proceedings of Parliament, which, in the opinion of the Court of Directors, may affect the rights, interests, or privileges of the East-India Company, shall be submitted by them to the consideration of a general court." Now, he could only say, that, in the opinion of the Court of Directors, the bill to which the hon. proprietor had last alluded, did not affect those rights, interests, and privileges: on this account, it had not been laid before the proprietors. This, therefore, was not an act of omission.

THE SHIPPING SYSTEM.

The court was about to adjourn, when Capt. Marfield rose to make his promised motion, founded on the papers relative to the shipping system, which had recently been laid before the proprietors. The hon. proprietor expressed his sentiments as follow:

"Sir, as the question respecting the mode of engaging tonnage for our commerce is one of great importance, I lose no time in bringing it forward before you quit that chair, in order that we may have the advantage of your professional experience; although in so doing, I come less prepared, from the short time I have had to examine the papers laid before us and other documents, to draw just conclusions, and illustrate by admitted data, facts and results evident and powerful, when stripped of official forms, the obscurity of multiplied calculations, and the endless variety of figured statements, which tend to confound and perplex those who undertake such uninviting inquiry. Let not, how. ever, one proprietor who hears me be deterred, by the imagined magnitude and intricacy of the undertaking, from forming his own opinion on the subject before him; I ask him not to pin his faith on mine; but I entreat him to avoid delusion from a dread of difficulty and a love of ease; let him only judge for himself. His interests and mine, Sir, are the same; it must be to our advantage to promote the general interests of the Company; and to do that effectually we shall see with our own eyes, and judge for ourselves, rather than be luiled to slumber over our affairs, by those who kindly propose to relieve us from the trouble of thinking.

"In the papers laid before this court in January last, it will be seen that the Company have now engaged for trade fortyseven ships, viz. twenty-four for six voyages, which are engaged at the highest rate, some as high as £26. 10s. per ton, others for three voyages, and only five for one voyage, the average of which five is only £13. 6s. per ton.

"The expense incurred on the fortyseven ships altogether, for each voyage, amounts to..... £1,187,778 10 11

saving, per voyage, of £573,732 18 11` "But, there is a question asked by many, why should we attempt such saving, what benefit can we derive, our dividend being limited to ten and a half per cent. ? ́I am aware that the act which limited our dividend, without any possibility of increase, powerfully operated to induce us to repose, and inquire as little as possible, as to how our commerce was conducted; nor can we wonder that no surplus has been found applicable to the objects directed by the act, as the strongest motive to induce human action, was thus removed. I am speaking of the effects produced, but am not the advocate for such indifference; and a little reflection will convince any one who chooses to think, that although it may not appear to our immediate advantage, to inquire into and improve the management of our concerns, it is a subject of the deepest interest, and a paramount duty we are bound to perform. I shall now proceed to show, that it is no less to our interest and advantage, to effect any reduction of expense possible, than it is a duty we owe to the public. Supposing it could possibly be urged, that by virtue of our charter, which provided distinctly for the supervision of a controlling power over our political conduct, an acknowledged right was admitted, to conduct our commerce in any way we thought proper, as far as profit and loss were concerned: I say, Sir, if any supposition so monstrous could be entertained, it may be easily shown our commercial transactions are so interwoven with political consideration, that we have no choice left of the course we ought to follow, whatever may be our inclinations. If the legislature did

really anticipate any surplus profit when they directed the appropriation of it, and if it were a mere delusion never to be realized, still there are considerations which render economy of such weight, that no sophistry can shake, or legal quibbling dispose of.

The

Let us

In 1812, a committee of the House of Commons declared, that' an augmentation of the numbers of European judges in India, adequate to the purposes required, would be attended with an augmentation of charge which the state of the finances of India was not calculated to bear, and the same objections occur to the appointment of assistant judges.' There, then, Sir, is the highest possible authority, pronouncing the means of administering justice to the enormous population under your government, inadequate to the performance of the first and most sacred duties of all government, while it furnishes the most powerful evidence and reasons, why you should economize not merely in India, but at home also. higher rate at which tonnage is engaged for the conveyance of stores and troops to India, chargeable to the government of India, necessarily increases the expenses of India, and reduces its means. imagine, for it has been asserted, that there was a want of shot in India to carry on the war against the Burmese, and you were called upon for a large supply, what would be the consequence? why, having ships taken up for six and three voyages as well as some of our own, it becomes desirable to lade them, and they are laden, and the Indian government in consequence becomes chargeable with probably double the rate of tonnage, for which freight might be obtained in the shipping market. Delay may also take place from thus waiting to load ships on our hands, which may not be ready to sail, and the consequences are then too evident, if other ships are then hired; our regular tonnage may, as is sometimes the case, sail half laden, or if they are detained, a heavy expense is incurred by demurrage. By such process, it is evident that much of the heavy charges of Indian war which is always laid at the door of the Governor-General of the day, may be fairly transferred elsewhere; and, as amongst other complaints and outcry laid against Lord Amherst, the want of shot at the outset of the Burmese war was a heavy one, it is hardly reasonable he should be held responsible, unless he had the means of taking them out in his pocket, with a prophetic knowledge they would be so soon required. Much clamour has been raised against your Governor-General, and from the silence of his natural protectors, all the existing evils and embarrassments may, by inference, be attributed to him; and I beg to declare my intention whenever a motion shall be submitted embracing such sub

jects, to do my best to saddle the right horse, and not allow Lord Amherst to be made a scape-goat to cover the blunders and incapacity of others. I was led to this digression, Sir, from the extensive operation of the effects induced by engaging tonnage at a high rate, and that it is our duty to obtain it at the most reasonable rate will not be denied. Now let us inquire how much it is our interest to do so. As the reasons which operated in the early part of our history, to equip ships employed in our trade in such an expensive manner, has long since ceased, it is our duty to avoid such unnecessary expense, and it is only to be attributed to the force of habit and prejudices that it has not long since been exploded. The uselessness of such equipment is evidently admitted by your engaging some of your tonnage on a plan less expensive and more commercial, and of itself furnishes the best evidence that it ought to be generally adopted. That the shipping employed by you in trade should be, either in fact or pretension, any other than mere merchantmen is too monstrous and absurd to be doubted at this moment, and your predilection for making your merchant ships as warlike as possible, is only equalled by your measures to render your vesssels of war as commercial as possible. The expense of such equipment is, however, only part of the evil produced; but to point out all the evils it entails, and all the mischief it engenders, would be to encroach too largely on your time. I shall therefore refrain from urging more than I am compelled to adduce, and purposely reserve the most powerful and conclusive arguments on this occasion, and trust the motives which induce me to do so will not be misinterpreted. The existing system confers a patronage and power on the owners of the regular ships as extraordinary as it is unjust to the military branch of your service. The owner of such ships appoints his own commander, who is sworn in by you, and by virtue of such appointment, agreeably to your orders of 1804, thus obtains the comparative military rank of a lieut.-col., although by former usage, and when there were better reasons than at present for conferring consequence, no such thing was allowed. On your trading ships, the commanders then held a rank between that of captain and major in your army; but, by the later orders the owner of a chartered ship obtained the power of superseding many officers who had served you in a capacity purely military from infancy to old age, by young men who were in some cases not born at the time those they superseded held the comparative rank of field officers in your army. No man can entertain more regard and esteem for many of the individuals so favoured than I do: but, evenhanded justice cannot admit such sweep

ing supersession, to be either politic or beneficial to our interests. The splendid salaries enjoyed by your civil servants was considered by the state, and is, I believe, admitted by them to be fully equivalent to military rank; and why such princely profits, derived from trade by the commercial branch of your service, are deemed inadequate without the privilege of military supersession, it remains with you, Sir, to explain. If we desire the renewal of our charter, it may be well to consider whether an equitable regard for the in terests and fair pretensions of all, rather than of the few, are most likely to obtain it. We are represented as hateful from having a monopoly, and that our commercial management tends to injure and oppress the general interests of the country; but, I am prepared to prove by undeniable evidence that by conducting our commerce on true commercial principles, this Company, instead of being deemed a public injury, would be acknowledged as a source of great national advantage, a grand rallying point for commercial enterprize, an example worthy of general imitation, and a most powerful and stupendous pillar of support to the British empire. These are considerations which come home to all who feel for the interests of this Company, unconnected with lateral benefits. My interests as a proprietor are merely those of any other who desires no advantage from shipping or commerce, and the agitation of this question has the promotion of our general interests for its object. But an opinion is industriously encouraged, that those who bring forward any motion from this side the bar are hostile to the interests of the Company. I beg to declare that that is not my case; and strange, indeed, would it appear with so large a stake in the hedge, if I should entertain other than the most ardent desire to promote the general welfare of this Company. I have long been studiously attentive to the conduct of your affairs both in India and in this country; and while I fearlessly presume to remark upon palpable and glaring defects, no man can be more willing than I am to express the high opinion I entertain of the purity of intention and liberal conduct of this Company generally, to promote the public interest. I know of no government, nor public body whatever, who have gone so far as this Company to sacrifice their own interest to promote the public good; and, in all cases, to excite just and liberal conduct on the part of their servants, who are, generally speaking, no less remarkable for talents and ability, than for personal disinterestedness. In one word, whenever such intentions have been defeated and frustrated, they may be distinctly traced in every page of your history to commercial influence; every defect in your government abroad,

every evil, in fact, that you have had to contend with at home-all have arisen from a want of efficiency in those branches of your service, which, it cannot be denied, may be clearly proved to spring from the same source. It is a millstone about our necks which defeats our best intentions, renders us unpopular at home, and not justly appreciated abroad. I shall now adduce a short estimate, exhibiting some results of our commerce for ten years, com. mencing from 1793, when our dividend was fixed at ten and a-half per cent. From 1794 to 1803 inclusive, the prime cost of all goods purchased by this Company £31,068,118

was.......

The amount of freight and other charges was

........

Of which the freight and demurrage alone was

20,234,372 12,108,882

"Here, then, it is evident, beyond a doubt, that you have been carrying on a trade burthened with charges exceeding 65 per cent. on the prime cost. Can we wonder that there is no surplus profit? It is worth while to consider, that unless some surplus is realized, the most powerful argument for the renewal of the exclusive privilege of trading to China will be destroyed, while we should remember, that although such privilege were refused, we still exist as a commercial Company; but the continuing to trade there upon such management, will scarcely be even pretended; and it is therefore prudent to avoid having a long list of expensive ships upon our hands longer than necessity compels us. I therefore beg to submit four resolutions, and conceive, Sir, they must meet your approbation; indeed, the first is so completely a test of friendly feelings towards the Company, that I entertain no doubt but it will meet with that cordial support from your side the bar, which every measure will always claim, which has for its object the benefit of the proprietors at large. Its object, Sir, is to solicit the permission of Parliament to divide a small portion of the surplus profits which may be derived hereafter from our commerce above ten and a-half per cent.; and, although it may be urged by some that we should not go oftener to Parliament than necessity compels, yet, as we sought and obtained the permission of Parliament a few years ago to grant the ship-owners a sum little short of a million sterling, I think, we may, with as equally good grace, seek the permission of Parliament to divide a small portion of such surplus as may accrue hereafter, as a stimulus to create a surplus, and consequently to promote the object Parliament had in view when they directed the application of such surplus. The hon. proprietor was proceeding to read his resolution, when

Mr. Weeding rose to order. He believed that no motion could be made while

the